Does America actually have to win in Iraq? That depends on what you define as a win. Our stated goals when we entered Iraq were basically two:
1) Remove Sadam and free the Iraqi people.
2) Find and destroy Iraqs weapons of mass destruction if they exist.
These objectives have been attained and had been attained when G.W. announced, "Mission accomplished" (Olbermann will 'get it' around day 18,681. Let's start a pool.) Technically we can declare victory right now on that basis and go home. The problem is that a power vacuum will be left in our wake and the Iraqi people will be abandoned to a sea of mad killers. Under these circumstances it would be cruel to declare victory without actually securing peace because, perhaps unfortunately, any time America goes to war it is assumed that one of our goals is always to establish a peace. In the case of Iraq that is not possible.
If one of the measures of victory is peace at the conclusion then bold new definitions for the whole concept of modern warfare must be formulated. For example, everyone knows that Israel won its independence in 1948. Then it won the Six Day war and the Yom Kippur war and some of the other wars its been in going as far back to King David if you like. Wouldn't it be more realistic to say that Israel has won many battles for survival but has never won the war? Isn't Israel's fight for existence better termed a 'struggle'? A jihad?
Like it or not America and every nation on earth has been drawn into the Islamic jihad. The Islamic jihad is by definition a declaration of war by Islam upon all non-Muslims. That is a fact and calling me a racist all day and all night long is not going to change that fact. Our primary goal, then, is not to win victory in foreign lands (though that may be a goal). Our primary goal must be to prevent Islam from conquering America. Our primary goal must be homeland security. And I'm not talking about security from attack. I'm talking about prevention of infiltration by belligerents.
We must learn to look at what we face through the eyes of those attacking us. We must understand their goals and we must understand their tactics. And above all, we must overcome our political correctness indoctrination and identify our attackers for exactly who they are. If we deceive ourselves into believing that we are fighting only the bomb carrying radical in front of us we will lose the fight to the "peaceful" Muslim who sneaks into our midst through the back door of our borders. We have to recognize that "peaceful" imams who get harassed by security at airports are our enemies doing what they can to disrupt order in our society. If we allow political correctness and the easily duped media to prevent us from seeing the truth and defending ourselves we lose the struggle without putting up a struggle.
The old adage applies today: "Every general goes to war prepared to fight the last war". It is essential that our generals and our political leaders understand that the old methods and definitions of war do not apply in this war. This is a jihad where the enemy is everywhere including in our midst. There is no such things as victory (unless it comes down to destroying every Muslim as a response to their stated goal of killing every one of us). All we have is the struggle itself. We must secure our backs and pick our battles wisely - but we don't have to win every one of them.
As for Iraq, it seems to me that Iraq will have a better chance of establishing a democracy - or any government for that matter - if we pull out than if we stay. If we were to put all our strength in Afghanistan many of the enemy would follow possibly giving enough relief for Iraq to rebuild itself. A long shot, I know, but in the end only the Iraqis themselves can decide their future.
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The U.S., as you point out, could never play the roll of the strong man. Our ability to destroy hoards of people makes no impression on their willingness to die for a cause.
They come to our country and inflict death and destruction. We have the power to inflict hundreds of times that amount of destruction. Nothing is stopping us from going to Iran and crushing its political hierarchy except for our own political correctness indoctrination. The U.S. has the power to destroy evil anywhere on earth. What it lacks is the determination to do it.
Like... my daughter's babysitter (from Pakistan)... my upstairs neighbors in my last apt (husband was Egyptian, wife was a convert from Catholicism)... my husband (from West Africa) and his friends... my other neighbor in my old apt (Palestinian)... and so many other Moslem friends, neighbors, and co-workers I have known in my life.
Nobull, I was brought up to hate and fear Moslems. I know what you are talking about. I just learned on my own that much of the hype is just that. Hype. And lies. When I went to West Africa, all my assumptions about Islam were turned over on their heads. Sure, the terrorists exist, and my only complaint is that I wish the rest of the PEACEFUL moslem community would just stop being so peaceful, and kick their asses. [MAD]
But, at least you're thinking. When you at last reach the point where you can condemn Olbeman, O'Reilly, and Limbaugh as three similar smelling rotten apples, you will be approaching closer to the truth.
As for the three wise men you mention I don't have a serious problem with their freedom to speak (or make a buck doing it).
And you're right. No one has ever fought a war against worldwide terrorism. I can understand that the admin may have made mistakes, but until they acknowledge their mistakes, and change the order of battle, we will continute to lose that war.
1) LACK OF NATIONAL SOLIDARITY. We need wars and crises to feel any sense of national solidarity anymore. There is such a huge rift between left and right now, politically, that when the terrorists come again (and they will), we will be too busy arguing about immigration and stem cell approach, to notice their approach. There is not much Americans agree on as a nation anymore. It's a lot easier for the bullies to attack you, if your brothers and sisters don't give a damn about you either and won't walk you to school. Until Americans learn to find some common ground and be less partisanal, we will always be vulnerable to terrorism.
2) NEGLECTING OUR YOUNG. The Arab fundamentalists are training their kids to be killers from an early age. Not that we should copy them... but how are we training ours? To play x-box and watch cartoons and eat whatever they want and talk back to their parents? To put it bluntly, our schools SUCK, and are also so blandly politically correct that our kids are not being brought up with any sense of responsibility to their country. Instead they are being indoctrinated only about entitlement, sense gratification, and fast food. Some schools don't even offer phys ed anymore! How are these kids going to become our future soldiers?!
Until we start making it a priority to raise kids with a national and military conscience, we're going to be lost against the terrorists. I am advocating compulsory military service for everyone for 2 years, like they do in Germany. If you are a pacifist, fine, then go work at a homeless shelter or at like my pacifist cousin in Germany did, at a home for mentally challenged people. Active service in war should be voluntary, but just receiving a military training and serving your country, should be MANDATORY for all Americans. We are lazy and don't have any sense of responsibility to our country. You don't have to be conservative or liberal to see this. Our kids are being educated with a sense of entitlement.
These factors also make us easy pickin's for the terrorists.
Also, this #2 would help #1 a lot. If you are doing your military service alongside your liberal brothers and you are a Conservative, you will both start getting along more because you are both serving your country. This will level the playing field.
Terrorism always exists. If it's not the radical Moslems, we'll find some other bugaboo... the Russians. The Nazis. The Japs. Charlie. The Commies. Whatever. Having a "Clearly Defined Enemy", as you so succinctly put it, is part of our national identity as apple pie. And that, I am sad to say, may some day be our demise. We think we are solving the problem, but another one soon crops up. Our approach to every political problem is "Git R Done!" without really knowing what on earth we want to Git Done, or why that particular group is really our nemesis to begin with.
Instead of blaming The Other... look at what we are doing to invite this type of predatory military action.
At least, that is how I live my life on a personal level. I don't like to be a victim and blame others. If I am attracting negativity, I try to see what I am doing to invite it.
If we were more unified and strong as a nation, we would create a stronger military, we would create a stronger nation, we would be more well respected in the eyes of the world. [HEART]
I assume you are not willing to sacrifice ten innocents for every malefactor, so your statement is probably false. But if my assumption is false, then we'll have to start the destruction with you.
Why do we have to be the Power That Destroys All Evil?
Right now we are the Country In The Most Debt To Other Nations. Why do we want to keep spending their money, when we can't even wipe our own noses anymore?
And why can't we destroy the evil that's in our own shabby, fast-food funded, falling-apart illiteracy/delinquency farms called "The Public Schools of America"?
I'm not an isolationist. Just a realist. [GLARE]
Let's take care of our own first!! Educate our kids so that we won't be prey to easy takeover some day when we're left with an empty bank account and a nation of fat, lazy, TV-drugged, stupid adults.
Oh wait. We already have that. [OHMY]
listening to the media.[THUMBUP]
Larry B
Big thanks.[WINK]
I agree with some of your points (that you can't establish victory without assuring stability), but that was the whole reason I always opposed this war to begin with. There is no hope of establishing stability in the Middle East.
My husband says, "Those fanatic Moslems are not actually Moslems. They don't even follow the teachings of the Quran. They have twisted everything around to create their own version of Islam that suits their love of violence."
The problem is not Islam. The problem is evil, which the most morally weak are prey to. Unfortunately they draw everyone else into its wake, which is just what is happening now in Iraq and also in Israel. The Middle East, right now, is a nexus of evil forces, in my opinion.
May God protect us all from getting drawn into this.
I hope that you understood the deeper meaning in my last comments to you (1st warning). When I hear certain trains of thought, especially those that relate to grouping an entire race or cultural group, religion etc as evil or the cause for all problems in the world... I freeze in my tracks. I wasn't trying to attack you personally, even if maybe it sounded a little heavy. But nobull, that IS the exact rhetoric that Hitler used to rile up the German people. It leads to worse things than just mass deportation or other injustices (which is bad enough). It can lead to genocide and a whole lot of things we will very much regret and be ashamed of, in hindsight.
In almost every Jewish temple I've ever been to, there is a memorial plaque somewhere with the words, "NEVER AGAIN."
These things start out really innocently. MY own German relatives (I am half German), whom I love dearly, were totally OK with Hitler at the time. They were drawn into the propaganda and hate. Many were intelligent people, like yourself. They felt completely justified in believing that Jews, gays, and gypsies were the cause of all that was wrong in the world. They felt that God was on their side, and that they were absolutely in the right. They made a lot of generalizations about "the Jewish mentality" and the "Jewish problem." I don't want to say any more, except to say, "compare your own rhetoric."
Now, of course, they are so ashamed, they can't believe their country was led that far astray into hate. It started out innocently enough. It always does.
OBVIOUSLY, I am not implying that you are knowingly hate-mongering. You probably don't even feel hate, just justified fear and suspicion, and you have come to what you feel are rational and thought-out conclusions.
Still, any conclusions that bar exceptions, that generalize about a whole group of people, really disturb me.
I was just trying to get you to see that I have seen where this line of thinking can head, and it's not something I want to watch again in the human race.
We are always insisting on getting our paws into the Middle East... selling them our products, buying their oil, getting politically involved in their wars.
Well why don't we just BACK OFF? Leave them alone. I know it would mean backing out of Israel, which I have mixed feelings about (even though I never was a Zionist). But sometimes you have to do what isn't going to be pleasant to everyone. STOP doing business with these countries. FIND alternatives for their oil. (Actually, we already have them.) Don't try to open accounts in these countries, if you are in sales. If they are so fed up with our Coca Cola and jeans corrupting the purity of their women, well, screw it... let them live without our products.
I realize that the fanatics don't have boundaries, but we really do not have any reason to associate with fanatic Moslem countries (or any countries where barbarism, oppression of women, and recruitment of children into war at an early age, is the way of life). We should not be helping them, we should not be giving them aid, we should not even be trading with them, in my opinion. Look what happened in South Africa when we stopped trading with them. Apartheid ended. And if we are so concerned about the poor oppressed Iraqis, why haven't we gone to Africa, for example, and helped the many countries in civil war over there? Where were we when 8-year old kids in Sierra Leone were toting around bags of their family member's heads as part of their training to become ruthless murders? Where were we when over 1/2 the population of Rwanda got slaughtered?
You might be thinking, "That's ridiculous. That's THEIR problem, not ours."
EXACTLY my point. The only difference is that Africa is off the map for us.
I believe America's most effective strategy for maintaining a powerful world status is not in starting a war we can't finish and that exhausts our resources... but in letting our MONEY talk.
I know that it appears that I've done that but in fact I do not condemn all Muslims. I don't even condemn the entire Quran. The condemnation is for the solidarity shown by the vast majority of Islamists who defend everyone's right to interpret their holy book as they please along with their right to kill or die for that interpretation. Right now, as you say, the Quranic interpretation getting all the publicity is the one that says anyone not Muslim is an enemy of Islam and may rightly be murdered. That comes from a literal interpretation of the Quran. It is an interpretation that is gaining wider acceptence in Islam daily.
The Jews of the Ghettos ignored the warning signs in Nazi Germany. Don't expect me to ignore the hate mongering that goes on in Islam.
I don't pretend that this is a high level of thinking, or commendable, but it is human... not evil or inherently the same as racism based on a sense of personal superiority and higher privelege.
So what I am saying is, if you want to be suspicious of Moslems, go ahead, because in reality, it is very hard to suppress these reactions. Even I have them. All I'm saying is, don't let them RULE you. If you have to work with a Moslem at your job, get to know who they are and say hi to them and then judge who they are. If you are sick in the hospital and a Moslem doctor has to treat you, don't assume he is going to kill you, and thank him or her for helping you out.
I know a lot of people who have prejudices, but when the situation calls for it, will step beyond them to get to know someone or express gratitude, and in some situations even change how they think about that particular group. It is human and not so bad in my opinion, even though it's not totally politically correct, to generally dislike or mistrust a particular ethnic or religious or even racial group, so long as you are willing to make exceptions and keep an open mind.
Just want to clarify that! [WINK][SMILE][ROLLEYES]
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT INFORMATION?!
I have NEVER heard any of the Moslem friends of our family say anything even remotely like this!!!
I have, however heard them very VOCALLY and PUBLICLY oppose what other so-called Moslems are doing to destroy and break down Islam.
Please consider these passages from the Quran, and if you are going to continue with this train of thought, at least please try to support it with actual Quranic passages. I guarantee I will find corresponding passages in the Bible for you:
PLEASE READ THIS.... EVERYONE WHO COMES HERE... this talks about how certain passages supposedly promoting terrorism are misunderstood.
My husband told me this as well: the followers of the Prophet were attacked, and the war that they were fighting was originally in self-defense. Later, some of the Caliphs turned this concept around to fit their own ends of war and conquest. However, it is NOT part of the original revelations of the Prophet, NOR is it part of the mentality of most Moslems (BTW, the majority of Moslems live in countries outside the Middle East, did you know that?)
http://www.islam101.com/terror/quranWPJ.htm
I will quote a few passages from it:
The Historic Context and the Nature of the Holy Quran
The Holy Quran comprises of revelations from God to Prophet Muhammad over a period of twenty three years (610 C.E. – 632 C.E.). The first 13 years of the prophethood of Muhammad were at his hometown of Makkah (Mecca), where he and his fellow Muslims were severely persecuted by the pagans of Makkah. During that time, Muslims were not ordered to fight back, but bear the persecutions. Finally, God ordered the Prophet and his fellow Muslims (known as Sahabah) to emigrate to the city of Madinah, about 400 kilometers away.
This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.
In verse 2.190, God instructs Muslims to fight back, but not to transgress, and remain just even during the battle. "They are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to unscrupulous methods or to the indiscriminate killing and pillage which characterized the other wars. The excesses alluded to in this verse are acts such as taking up arms against women and children, the old and the injured, mutilation of the dead bodies of the enemy, uncalled for devastation through the destruction of fields and livestock, and other similar acts of injustice and brutality.
The Prophet prohibited all these acts. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary." (see note 201, page 151, Towards Understanding the Quran, Volume 1)
Also, please read this... it helps define why Islam is originally and fundamentally, a religion of peace, no matter how the Prophet's words have been distorted.
http://spirituality.indiatimes.com/articleshow/995419914.cms
And this article in National Geographic, discusses the jihad, and why it is often misinterpreted as a call to war. It is a call to self-defense when necessary, but not to aggression. It is also about the inner battle against our lower natures.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html
I hope this helps inform anyone who may be making sweeping judgements without actually reading the Quran or its purports. (or who might have just googled one passage quoted out of context!)
In the mean time I will hold every Muslim I come in contact with under suspicion unless or until I am convinced of his peaceful intents. Just as if you were a Nazi and I were a Jew.
The stated goal of Jihadists is to destroy all infidels in the cause of Islam. They make this declaration on the behalf of every Muslim whether or not a given Muslim accepts that concept. I do not in any way support a notion that all Muslims be killed. I am only giving the literal definition of what total victory means to both sides - i.e. annihilation of all perceived enemies.
You make an important distinction between Islam and "Jihadists." I also make this distinction.
I am very suspicious of anyone who says they support the modern-day concept of the Jihad, or who is a member of certain so-called "Moslem" political factions that support terror.
However, I don't confuse these factions with "Islam" as a whole. They are just that... factions.
It would actually benefit Americans a great deal right now to learn more about Islam with an open mind. Not just out of some politically correct pandering motive, but because it would benefit our security and understanding of these distinctions, and help us better discern and sniff out the real terrorists — rather than judging a book by its cover.
Someone could go to a fanatic Moslem country (they probably have) and quote our embarassing statistics of child abuse, rape, divorce, abortion and incest. Without knowing more about our nation, they would judge us based on our unpleasant statistics, and judge us to be complete barbarians. [GLARE][SAD]
But you and I know that on the whole, we're a good lot! [HEART]